Sparked by an entry at

[zianuray]

theperfumer's LJ, and posted also in her blog here, I hereby question the convention of the "three faces of the god/dess" as used in Wicca/Paganism/Heathenry/whatever practices use these designators.


Four primary directions are recognized (NESW), and four elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water), guardians, towers, etc...there are more phases of the moon than three (though I'll leave the exact number up to someone else to fuss about; I use 4:  Dark/New, Waxing, Full, and Waning), four seasons, four "solar observances" (Solstices and Equinoxes), four cross-quarter observances....

And there are women, as she points out, who do not fill any role described in the standard Maiden/Mother/Crone conventions.

I've heard reference to "Maiden/Mother/Warrior/Crone" (ala Mercedes Lackey) and "Maiden/Mother/Queen/Crone" (not sure who, but I believe I read it in SageWoman magazine by BBI Media).

What "new" archtype would you suggest for a woman who has not had children (whether by choice or by fate), but who is not yet a Crone?  Surely this does not diminish her nor her contributions to society, though there are certain experiences she will not have and certain lessons she will not learn this time -- but maybe she learned them well her last time on the wheel, and this time is for other lessons.

Warrior, in either the military or the business sense?  Queen, if she remains sovereign in her household (whether a one-person bed-sitter or a mansion teeming with family and/or servants)? 

How about for a woman who has had children, but they are no longer in her household; they have grown up and started their own?  Is she "stuck" with the Mother designation until her Croning, or does she take a new role and title?

And how about men?  Youth, Father, Sage...apply the same arguments, please, and go from there.  If a man chooses to not become a father, surely this does not diminish him, though again, some lessons may be reserved for another incarnation (or already learned).

(cross-posted to nonfluffypagans )

Here is the specific link to that post -- wow, really good discussion points!

 

Comments

[akaemilyrose.livejournal.com]

My suggestion would be something based on your function, such as "Healer", "Teacher", "Sage", etc. (Think "Class" as in D&D). Otherwise, there's also the more common thought pattern of "who needs a label anyway"?

Bear in mind that the traditional oriented pagan, for the most part, is trying to emulate a "time-long-gone" thought pattern in these titles, and with that in mind, the Mother, Maiden & Crone were pretty much the available choices for most women. Kind of like the class-based society we deal with in the Ren Faire environment. Fortunately, in both cases (to one degree or another), we've moved on.

[rowangolightly.livejournal.com]

I like the term, "Seeker" which covers all sorts of areas.

I don't have too much problem with the idea of "Maiden, Mother, Crone" however, I do find adding "Queen" in there to be particularly amusing.

My thing about these titles is that everyone seems to assume that it progresses in an orderly fashion from one to the next, leaving the prior one behind. I completely disagree with this. I think we can be any or all of them simultaneously or switch back and forth between them. We are never *just* one thing, any of us. It changes from day to day.

I don't care for pidgeon-holing titles anyway...

[bleuberi21.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with Rick on this...leave it up to the person (or maybe their priestess/priest?) to decide what their label (if they want one) should be, if they don't fall into one of those three main categories. I know lots of people who don't really identify with them, and consider themselves various different things.

Maiden/Mother/Crone

[lys1022.livejournal.com]

I guess that I find my definitions of "Maiden" "Mother" and "Crone" to be different than the definitions that are implied here. To me, they aren't indicative of the physical state, but of the mental and emotional ones.

In my thoughts, the Maiden personifies innocence. She is the representative of the part of us that believes that there is good in everyone and who dances through the meadows with flowers in her hair and doesn't feel self-conscious about it. She reminds us that even through the worst of times, there will always be a sunrise, a sunset, a rainbow and joy.

The Mother is the aspect that represents nurture. A woman doesn't have to have borne children to take on this aspect. Anyone who assumes a nurturing role, whether toward a person or persons, or toward the Earth, or anything at all really, becomes part of the Mother. The Mother is softeness with a spine of iron, caring with discipline, comfort with responsibility.

The Crone has nothing to do with age either, in my mind. She represents wisdom and experience. She is the voice that says, "Here is what we have learned from our experiences in life, and we share those with you so that you may learn from them in your own way." This usually does come from age, but not always, and even a child can take on the aspect of the Crone once in a while.

I believe that we all take on whichever aspect applies to any given situation at any given time. The overall arc is probably chronological just due to the specifics of those Aspects, but there are moments of each Aspect in every day for every person.

The short version (too late!) being that for me the three Aspects make sense. :)

[ivorywitch.livejournal.com]

I think the key to transcending labels is assimilation. We are always ALL of these, in One. I like the Queen and Warrior additions, but I also like the Whore..who is in possession of her own sexual power, not just from childbirth or relationships, but ending them as well. She has facets of Maiden and Crone, Mother and Queen, and you will see all of them in her exhibiting a life well lived. Assimilation gives us access to all the tools each of these facets bring to our lives. A Person cannot be defined by labels, rather by experiences, both given and received. There is no pat answer...and for myself...I claim them all and visit each one every day. We are no pegs to be put into holes, we are multifunctional, multifaceted, and should be encouraged to enjoy and embrace the wholeness that is womanhood..in all the facets we can name.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

The world is analog and words are digital. I think that many different models can work. In Europe, 3 is a magic number; in Native American tradition, 4 is a magic number. In Japan, 4 is unlucky and 8 is lucky. It's all about context.

Also, I love your icon.

Re: Hmm...

[zianuray.livejournal.com]

You're the first one in either post to use that comparison; it works for me!

Thank you! That is a pic of a candle I made "awhile back." I'm happy with how she turned out, but would like to figure out a formula to get a good terracotta color when what I have are the basic 8 colors in a box of crayons...

Re: Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>That is a pic of a candle I made "awhile back." <<

I am now extra impressed!

>>I'm happy with how she turned out, but would like to figure out a formula to get a good terracotta color when what I have are the basic 8 colors in a box of crayons...<<

Lots of options here. 1) Use terra cotta colored crayons. Not cheap, but it works. 2) Buy terra cotta colored wax, or powdered wax coloring, at a craft store. Much more economical and it's not that rare a color there. 3) Try using the powdered colorings for other stuff such as concrete. 4) Try using powdered red ochre, red clay dust, pulverized terra cotta pots, or red brick dust.

Re: Hmm...

[zianuray.livejournal.com]

I do use powdered candle pigments, but the ones I could get don't have the shade i want so I've been trying to mix them for the proper hue.

[marence.livejournal.com]

In Carpe Jugulum, a Terry Pratchett book, he discusses the three thing, using the argument that 3 is the right size for a coven. Two is an argument, and 4 or more becomes a committee. The three is echoed by the members being a maiden, a mother, and "the other one"; later it is stated that the "first among equals" witch, Granny Weatherwax, embodies all three in one, being a virgin, elderly, and a mother to all, in a sense.
He says the thing better than I can.

Anyway, the labels should be used for the convenience of the people involved. Some people's path take them into a stricter discipline, and they choose to live with the names/designations/roles that the particular discipline hold. Others choose their own way, and either eschew the labels, or make up ones that resonate for them. I like the idea of functional labels, as stated by umbramage, and maybe combine it with tradional ones - a Warrior Mother, or a Crone Healer, maybe?

[ktpinto.livejournal.com]

I have the following feminine structure:

Maiden/Teacher/Matriarch/Goddess

A teacher doesn't have to have children, but a mother is definitely a teacher.

A matriarch doesn't have to have children, but can be the wisewoman that younger people come to for advice and guidance.

Eventually we shed our mortal coil, and either become one with the universe or go back to start the cycle over again.